“The right piece, at the right time.”

Amber Funk Barton & Emma Metcalfe Hurst
Interview for Coming Out of Chaos: A Vancouver Dance Story

November 12, 2020

Amber Funk Barton, Dance artist, choreographer, founder of the response., collaborator in Karen Jamieson’s Body to Body piece

Emma Metcalfe Hurst, Karen Jamieson Dance Archivist/Creative Director of Coming Out of Chaos

This oral history interview has been edited for length, clarity, and accuracy

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: What is your name and your background entering into contemporary dance?

Amber Funk Barton: My name is Amber Funk Barton and I am one of the few people that is born and raised and has stayed in Vancouver on the West Coast so I feel very fortunate. A lot of artists are relocating from other places, when they come to Vancouver so sometimes I feel like I'm a unique unicorn in the Vancouver arts community. I was about probably between three or four years old when I started in classical ballet, and classical ballet was like the jam until I was about 15 years old and at that point in time, I went to my first summer school away from home atthe Banff Centre in Alberta. They had these wonderful programs that of course, don't exist anymore – I'm going to talk a lot about programs that don't exist anymore, that I feel like I got to experience as part of the history of Canadian dance and in Vancouver. So, the Banff Centre had these amazing summer training programs where we went for five weeks, and we would train and we had four days of shows after, and all our parents came up. We’d use all the theatres and the facilities. I'm bringing this up because it was there I had my first modern dance class, and it was a Graham class. After that first class, I was just like, I'm home. I don't know what this is but this is it. It was revolutionary. It was just so natural. I just felt like I could – for the first time ever even though I was so young at 15, I felt like I could be myself. Like I wasn't pretending to be something else, or trying to be someone else, or fit my body into a specific shape. That there was only one way. And the musicality, it was so dramatic, it was right up my alley. So, that was great.

It was also during that time, they used to have an award called the Clifford E. Lee [Choreography] Award. They might have changed it by now but it was specifically to recognize Canadian choreographers. It was there that I saw Joe Laughlin's [Joe Ink] work for the first time and there was another epiphany moment where I'm watching this work and I'm like, that's it.

That's what I want to do. I want to be a choreographer. Like, this is it. It was so much fun and dramatic and musical and the costumes were amazing. It was beautiful, theatrical, and I didn't realize dance could be that way on a different scale of theatricality, of that classical ballet. It was just so expressive, and it was like musical theatre, but it wasn't and it was like ballet, but it wasn't. It was all of my favourite things. Also, I'm a child raised on musical theatre. My mom made me watch, like all the musical theater movies and videos as a kid. So, just this amalgamation of seeing things at the Banff Centre and just being like, Oh my God, that's what I want to do.

From there, I started going into more modern and contemporary. When I was a student as a teenager, and we're going back like 20 plus years now, there were no contemporary classes.

Like in dance competition, there wasn't even a contemporary category. Like there was nobody really teaching it. I don't even know how you can teach it, right? So, I would just enter the contemporary categories and choreograph it myself [laughs]. Like, there were no classes, there were no workshops. And then fast forward when I graduated high school, I was quite lost. I wasn't sure what to do. I knew I wasn't a ballet dancer, so I thought it was game over for me.

And to make a long story short, I found my way to Arts Umbrella and Artie, Artemis Gordon, she saved my dance life. I was at such a low point, and if it wasn't for her, she basically was like – I'll never forget this – she was like refusing to let me quit. I remember, she looked at me and she was just like: Just give me one year. Give me one year. You can hate it all you want, just give me one year and we’ll take it from there. And sure enough, I'm still sort of going [laughs].

From that connection, I went on to try to train with Ballet BC, they used to have what's called the Mentor Program. Again, I'm so sad that it doesn't exist anymore. I feel like now Arts Umbrella's training has evolved and developed so much that they just take on that kind of pre-professional training for those dancers. But once upon a time, I got to take classes with the company as a student, like every single day, and be in rehearsals and watch, and that's when John Alleyne was still there. I got to watch him create The Faerie Queen. I'd never watched somebody actually create a contemporary ballet from scratch. So, I feel just so, so fortunate that my training is not how dancers are being trained now. It's not better or worse, it's just different. It's a different experience. And then, when I finished my mentor program training with Ballet BC, I didn't know how – I was so scared, I was just like, Okay, I guess I do this independent dance thing. I don't know what this is. And to make a long story short, full circle, I started working with Joe Laughlin [Joe Ink] immediately. I had this crazy opportunity where I worked with him for like, two, three years [laughs], like, which doesn't really happen. And from that, I was just still kind of hell bent on creating my own work at the same time. I knew I wanted to be a choreographer. I'm so fortunate, it just – I want to say I was naive in all the right ways. I was very fortunate that I had a support system where I could just dance and in the beginning, I was just pursuing it because I just loved it so much and there was no other option. I was like, there's no other – it sounds a bit like a movie, but I didn't know what else I can do, like, this is what I do! This is it.

So, that's kind of how it led me to here [laughs].

About 10 years after I established myself in the contemporary dance community here working as an independent artist, I established my own company, the response. That was in 2008. Now it's been 12-13 years of having my own project-based company. Vancouver can be a challenging place to have a career as a dance artist, so I feel just so fortunate that I've been able to keep going. And so much of it I want to add is the result of people's generosity, sharing information. There's no way any of us can achieve anything if people aren't passing down knowledge that they received. Once you get to about mid-career, you realize there's certain things people have shared with you, or told you and that it's your responsibility to pass on to other people if they ask, and I've always encouraged that. I had a couple – for lack of a better word, “mentors,” or just people I was close to say one day, you're gonna find yourself telling this to somebody else. And those moments have happened over the past couple years. And it's like, Oh, this is so great. You feel like you're a part of something.

I didn't go to SFU, I don't have a dance degree, I don't have any post-secondary education. So, the fact you can do that, I think that's great because I think being able to be part of academia in the arts is a whole other thing and that serves a great purpose as well. But essentially, what I'm trying to say is that what we do and how we live this life, it's not taught in a course and it's not in books, and you don't take a course, and you get a grade, and now you know everything. You think you figure something out, and then there's another grant that you have to figure out how to write, and you have no business training, and typically no training on how to express yourself verbally – also, dancers aren't always encouraged to express themselves verbally. So, that's a whole other challenge compared to, in my personal opinion, theatre artists who just like, can talk for days! I just feel like that's why I always keep saying dancers are amazing, because I feel like everything to a certain degree is so challenging and against that art form. Take musicians or visual artists, if they get an idea at three o'clock in the morning, they can just pick up their instrument and go to town, and it's jotted down, and they have it, and they can work on it.

Whereas when you're a choreographer or a dancer, and you have a great idea, I mean – of course it's changed a lot with COVID-19, but the reality is, if you're working with dancers you have to wait. When are the dancers available? When can I get space? You're always working against your optimum, ideal situation. Like, maybe you're a morning person, but all your dancers function better in the afternoon. And then you can't get studio space. You're always fighting against so many things. And that's another reason why I think dancers are just problem solvers.

I would say choreographers and directors are the ultimate problem solvers. But dance artists, they're just always constantly trying to figure out how to do what they do.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: In the interviews that I've done, I’ve found that the spirit of reciprocity and passing down information is a common thread that comes up. And as you said, that ability to stay in Vancouver, to stay here, is, again, so much about that spirit of reciprocity and being able to share space with each other, share resources, information, everything. That's such a key part of your growth as an individual artist, but to the stability of the community as well.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's certain people that take turns and lead.

Like, for example, what Ziyian Kwan is doing with Morrow is incredible. It's not even about having a space to move in, it's the fact that there's just, like, this hub of support. Another hub other than the usual suspects, where artists are being supported and celebrated and going outside of the box. It's not just dance, it's anything, like any way to support artists. I think that is the best example I can give right now of somebody just, like figuring it out, pivoting and being a little bright light in the community [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Mm hmm. Yeah. And just rethinking some of the models that exist. Especially the fact that it’s got a storefront as well.

Amber Funk Barton: Oh, it's like, brilliant!

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Really amazing. Okay, so the next question kind of relates to some of the things we've already talked about, but I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more about where you draw your personal influences from?

Amber Funk Barton: Oh, yes, personal influences. I am a big pop culture junkie. I think there are multiple things I draw influences from. In terms of imagery or visuals, I watch a lot of TV and film. I really get moved by the way, bodies are in frames, positioning. I'm not being very eloquent with my speech, but I love cinema for that. And the ability of the moving art form with images in film and TV and how it can connect story and people and humanity and every once in a while, a great soundtrack of music [laughs]. I love all those things. Fiction in general is a huge thing for me. So, when I say like fiction or film, what it also brings up for me is people and relationships and emotions. And that's always a huge, huge drawing point for me. I'm really interested in people. What makes them tick. I also feel like psychology and how people act is also a way that I make the decisions. Maybe motivation for lack of a better word? Why am I moving? Don’t get me wrong, I love sweet moves, and I have that ability, like, here's an awesome piece of music, make a bunch of amazing steps to it. x y z. I have fun with that too, but if I'm really trying to make a work, like a project, I have to have an emotional motivation. Not necessarily a story, it's always very broad, but some type of universal emotion or story or emotional situation. When I started working with some theatre directors and theatre artists, I was very nervous, but then when I started working with the actors, it felt so easy. I felt like I could just explain, and I was just like, Oh, this makes so much sense that I should be working in theatre, because all of my movement is like, about the motivation, where it's coming from. Actors – more than dancers – ask these very specific questions about the movement, where it's coming from, and I was always able to answer them and I was just like, Oh, this makes sense.

For example, my latest work that I'm working on – and I'm so fortunate to be working on anything right now! – the title's How to Say Goodbye, and it's about those all-encompassing feelings that have been now heightened due to COVID-19 of just like loss and absence and being in a space and not being able to leave or not being able to go to a space, whether that's physical or emotional. What happens is, the dancers almost become like these avatars in an imaginary landscape where they just move through and it's quite dreamlike. This way of working has been developing, I would say, over the past five years. I actually feel like I'm making my best work now and that it's clearer to me now how I move bodies and how I want to create in space. Those are my main influences: people, the psychology of people. As kind of a personal belief, whenever somebody acts a certain way – and maybe it's upsetting, I always try to remember, there's always a reason why somebody is acting in a certain way. And that doesn't excuse their behaviour, but at least I can have compassion, or I can try and understand where this person is coming from, as opposed to just being reactionary. So, I feel like that fascination of psychology, of how humans act, where they're coming from, I feel like that plays a lot into my influences. I was one of those weird kids that was also obsessed with [laughs] movies and stories of people in like, insane asylums, and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. But yeah, I love dancers to look like people on stage. I love dancers that are versatile. I think stillness and vulnerability also play a huge role in the type of work I want to do. Funny enough, there have been times in the past where my work has been described as cinematic. So, I think it all kind of feeds in and the pool is very broad of my influences, and yet very clear at the same time and very specific.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, it sounds like you've been able to refine those areas of interest and draw from all of these influences over the years into a form that works for you.

Amber Funk Barton: Sometimes. I don't even know what's going on half the time. Every time you come into the room, it's just like, how does this work again? Do I start here? It doesn't matter how many times you make something and I think that's why it's so beautiful and why we keep making work is because you make something and then you think you finally figured something out, but then there's something else that you didn’t know. You're always unsatisfied in a really satisfying way. And you just keep going because you're searching for this unanswered, lovely unsatisfied thing. I also like to subscribe to the belief that if you try and make a full length piece, you just automatically fail. So, just don't worry about it [laughs], just make the piece you want to make [laughs]. Just go for it. Take those expectations away from you because it's hard what we do and it's not the same as theatre where you get like, three, four weeks to run your show. The audience is different. You only get – if you're lucky, like a four show run. That's just the reality of the cultural climate that we're living in on the West Coast. It might be different if we were in Toronto or Montréal, but it's always been a challenge getting audiences out here or just getting new people to come out.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Mm hmm. So, that follows into my next question then about what the creative atmosphere is like in the Vancouver contemporary dance scene?

Amber Funk Barton: Mm hmm. Are you saying in general like how people are creating or...?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, I was wondering if there are common themes, or forms, or influences that are shaping the scene. As you mentioned, I’m thinking about the Vancouver audiences for dance – or maybe the lack thereof in some ways, and how that influences what those themes or those interests are.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean I feel like people may disagree with what I say. I'll speak from my experience. I think Vancouver is a fantastic DIY [laughs] kind of place.

You particularly see that with the emerging pool of artists coming up, which is quite fascinating. I love the energy of the younger generation right now just like, Don't have a theatre? That's okay.

Here's like, a truck, and I'll do it in my truck. It's really great. I think that energy is really great. I also think Vancouver is quite unique compared to the rest of Canada in the fact that you can't just look at any one person's work and be like, Oh, yeah, that's such a Vancouver piece. The aesthetic is so diverse here. You can't compare one person to the other. Whereas I feel sometimes, if you look at a pool of artists from Toronto or Montréal, like within seconds of looking at their work, you're like, Oh, yeah, that's not from here, that's from Montréal, or that's from back East. That’s a different energy. But Vancouver, I don't feel like there's any one thing that pins it down.

I would say for Canadians in general, it's changing. When I was a student, or when I was say mid-late 20s, and still, to a degree, when I would study internationally, I was really blown away by how technically strong Canadian dancers are. Our technique as contemporary dancers is great. And to see that on an international scale, it’s cool. When I went to ImPulsTanz in Vienna I was 26, and I just had this fear of Oh my god, I'm not going to be up to par, I should have been traveling internationally sooner, I'm behind. And then I'm looking around at all the different workshops and not to sound cocky, but I'm doing okay! [laughs] I'm okay, we're doing good, technically.

I feel like conceptually, there's some awesome stuff starting to happen in Vancouver that is a result of the change of training. I feel like artists are being created in Vancouver more than dancers. I don't say that as a negative. I say that as there's such a different perspective to the training. I feel like it's also the result of technology. We have different things that we can access and inspire us now. Again, as an example, when I was a student, there were not the same conversations about, you know, collaborating with other artists. I don’t remember anything like that as a student. And now young people are already thinking about how that all meshes in to express themselves artistically, as opposed to focusing on form. I think that's changing what it means to be a choreographer. I think that definition of what a choreographer is or a dance artist is now very broad. I don't like to categorize, but I see a lot of work, and I feel it's more performance-based or performance art. It's more conceptual. It's diving deeper beyond just the technical form and I think that's exciting. I'm always trying to see how we can get the best of both: how can I get some, like, rich, meaty content, but how can I still keep some sweet moves in there? [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, the technique still brings a very distinct language.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah. Depending on the technique you're using. For me, technique is a way to ensure that your body is the clearest as possible to communicate what you need to communicate. That's what technique is for me. I know technique can be like this evil word, especially with ballet in the terms of how “oppressive” it is, or colonial. I get that. I went through my own journey with classical ballet. Believe me, as a woman of colour, all of those things. And when it came down to it, I was just like, Well, this could just be a tool. And I also had a teacher that changed it for me, like in the wording, and it's just something you use to get your body to express itself the most that you can. Let's take away this idea that you have to be this one thing.

And now let's look at your body and figure out how we can find your range. I think that's the key in terms of technique. I don't care if it's ballet, or jazz, or modern. Whatever! Everything has technique. And so maybe that's always your foundation, your baseline when you get lost; to come back to your body, to reassess, to realign, and then you can break it up. But if you don't have a foundation, you have nothing to manipulate, you have nothing to pull apart. At least that's how I was taught. Once I started thinking that ballet is a tool, as opposed to this oppressive thing being put upon me, then I was able to let go and surrender and with some of my teachers, you know, forgive [laughs]. The thing is too, so many of us – we only teach how we were taught, so that there's that as well.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Exactly! I was just gonna point that out. Teaching is a whole other beast.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah, I think that's the other thing too. It's like, [exhales] unless you do some kind of fancy training, whether it's like for ballet, syllabus exams, you're not getting any teacher training. Everything's experiential, which is also insane. I don't know if that should be allowed actually [laughs]. A lot of people only teach how they were taught. How can they do anything else? Again, that doesn't make certain behaviours acceptable, but it helps me to understand just what the heck is going on [laughs]. Or to choose, You know what, I'm not going to go to that class again, or I'm not going to go to that teacher, that person's just not for me. And the crazy thing is what works for some people doesn't work for others [laughs]!

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, but there's definitely a maturity that you need to have to be able to have that self-reflection and objectivity. It can be so hard because you get thrown into dance when you're so young.

Amber Funk Barton: Ugh, I know. I feel like there needs to be more trauma-informed workshops with regards to teaching dance. There's so much trauma that is imposed upon young children in certain scenarios and not even in ways where the teachers are being mean or horrible, but even wording has changed so much too, in how we talk to children or adults about what is possibly not great to say to someone. Especially when you're standing in front of a mirror in like, practically a bathing suit–

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: –and early, prepubescent bodies.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Oh, yeah. It's hard. If you can get past the body image and body shaming, that's applaudable. But that also needs to change.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: But moving onto my next question, what are some of the main conditions that are driving dance work, but also inhibiting it in Vancouver?

Amber Funk Barton: That's a big one. And I feel like that's changed a lot now with COVID-19.

Funding [laughs]! It's like this horrible, vicious circle where you need money to get better [laughs]. Or you need money to pay the dancers that are skilled enough to do your work. Not to sound ungrateful, because I also want to state clearly how I know it's not a perfect system, but the fact that we live in a country where you can access public funding is insane. Sometimes that perspective gets lost. And of course, as artists, we are working so hard, but when I personally find it very frustrating or challenging, I just hold on to that because holy crap, like that is just not an option for so many people in the world. Like I said, it's not perfect. I completely acknowledge that, but the fact that it exists, the fact that it's possible, that's what I hang on to, the possibility, the hope. So, funding is always a challenge. And it gets challenging if you're a young creator, speaking from my own experiences. The funding bodies have changed a lot since I started, but there was one point where I kind of maxed out how much I could access. I was such a go-getter, and at the rate I was going, I was just like, I can't wait a year for money, I need to keep going!

We all get on that trajectory. I always knew I wanted to start a company, but I did it so much sooner than I thought it was going to. And then I got thrown into the whole nonprofit thing, and all those responsibilities that you have, it's been so great. It's been such a great experience but I really also wish there were more options for artists who want to create other than this one way. It's like you have to do it this way. And it's not like you're guaranteed more funding, but it's like in order to access more funding, or to create the scale of work that you want – which for a lot of dancers is high production values, and even if you're in a black box, you need to have that. It's encouraged that you have the infrastructure to show that you're responsible and all those things, but what happens is you just end up doing so much admin, and so much work that you are still not paid for. I don't know why it's taken me so long, but I'm having this like “aha” moment even at 40 where I'm like, Oh my god, all this work I do and I am not paid. And, you know, that's only sustainable for so long [laughs]!

When you're young, you're starting, everything's exciting. You do what I call the “no money” gigs, like you're just doing it. You're just having fun, you're hustling, you're living your dream. But then you get to the point where I think it's really important – and there needs to be more conversations with dancers about! No, this is your worth now, and you deserve to be paid this much. You have very specific skills. And unfortunately, the way the arts and the milieu is set up, everyone is strapped for cash so it creates this ongoing cycle of telling artists and young people to speak up about their worth, yet when that person brings that to the table, there's this conversation of, “well, we can't afford that and we can't meet that.” Especially if it’s a young person who's brave enough to speak up to a superior, or an organization, I just hope that they're not pegged as difficult. I'm saying that this is a valid request and/or conversation.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Right. You don’t want to be black-listed that early on.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah, there's a certain point where it's like, I'm doing this for free, again.

And where do you draw that line? Where it's like, this is my time and energy, and this is a specific skill that I'm giving. Again, I'm just putting that out there. I don't have all the answers.

But I know that something has to shift. I don't know how and I wonder if it's like rethinking all these models that we have. Maybe we should be thinking about being more of a business. Like, is it so wrong to make money? I don't think so. And we should be having people invest in artists.

You can get that with donors, but it's more of the higher profile companies. The other challenge is I think we're always fighting against the culture here. Like, it's just “arts.” We've seen it in COVID-19 – it's been described as a non-essential service. I don't take that personally, it's the reality of this culture in the country. I hope I'm not coming off as negative in saying that, but I just feel like, well, this is the culture, this is what we're going to have to deal with if we decide to continue doing this.

So, I think funding is the big thing. Now space is a huge issue. It's always been a huge issue before and now it's even a bigger issue with COVID-19. Space. It's amazing how much you need space. Space that is clean, space that feels warm, space that you feel like you can create in, at the risk of sounding too woo woo, like the energy of the space. There are some times I change my space, depending on how I feel. There's times where I don't want to work in certain studios because there's just too many people and there's too much energy. But then there's other times where it's like I want to be part of the community, Maybe I'll run into somebody, I could use that exchange, you know? And then there's other times where I just want to hibernate in some little warm little studio somewhere and not worry about keeping a schedule.

I do think there could be some amazing developments of studio sharing, and whatnot. Almost like co-op studio spaces, which I know some people are making that happen in our community. I feel like maybe if we had a couple more, that might be great [laughs]. It's also the sizes – they're either like, really, really small or really, really big and if there was some more mid-range. But yeah, funding's always the big thing because you want to be professional with the people you work with. You want to make sure artists are paid their value in their worth. I've even not decided to proceed with projects because I'm not going to do it unless people are paid. I'm not going to ask somebody to work for free. And unfortunately, I've been in situations, and still to this day, where I believed in the project so I forfeited getting paid. I tried to pay everyone else even though it wasn't the ideal conditions. Only certain projects do that. Don't do it all the time, because you're not valuing yourself. Every time you don't pay yourself, you're basically like subconsciously telling yourself, It's okay that you don't get paid. Like you're teaching yourself poverty mentality. It's not even about dollars and cents. It's about your value, like your value as an artist and your value as a human being. So that's the long version of funding. It's huge [laughs].

We could find more templates for the business of dance, for dancers to organize themselves. I also think management and admin is a huge issue. There's only a couple of sources where you could get management and if you don't fit into those boxes, what do you do? You have to go out and find an assistant or a manager. It's very limited if you want an agent or manager, or how you can be represented, and because there's a limited number, they're maxed out too. So, even if you were ready to go, those bodies might still not be able to serve you the way that you have this vision where somebody's accessible exclusively to you. That person doesn't really exist, unless you're paying them a full-time salary, and they're exclusively committed to you.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah.

Amber Funk Barton: That's not happening [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: If you’re part-time, no.

Amber Funk Barton: In my “perfect world” vision, it would be great if there was more training for arts administrators, more training for management. What we do is such a finite, specialized thing. Just because somebody goes to a job interview and says they can be an arts administrator for contemporary dance, it's like, okay, you might be able to, but you have to figure out this whole milieu and community, you have to figure out how the systems work, the timing of things, how you talk to people about certain things. Then you spend a year or two training someone.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It's like a mentorship in a way.

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah, you're mentoring. And, again, you're not getting paid for any of this.

You're spending more time doing this, something that's supposed to help you, but you're actually exerting more time and energy than if you're just doing it by yourself. Not everybody can do it by themselves. Me, personally, I'm actually good on my own. I have someone that helps me. I'm proficient enough in my admin skills at this point where I can handle it, or I know how to delegate to one person for some of the tasks I don't want to do. I don't have a big vision right now, like touring, so I'm okay just on my own. But that's not for everybody. I feel like there’s really a need for the younger generation of artists right now. They're so limited in their options of help. I really love what New Works is doing lately, trying to think outside the box and have more workshops and thinking, Okay, maybe we can't help this person on a regular basis, or maybe we can do a little project together. We have to get creative otherwise, it's the community that suffers and the art form suffers.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, as you said, how can we redistribute some of these skills and resources more sustainably and equitably? It’s a big question. So, my next set of questions deals with Karen Jamieson and archives. Do you know about the Coming Out of Chaos piece at all?

Amber Funk Barton: Coming Out of Chaos, well I was working with them [Karen Jamieson Dance] last year [2019]. And I think that Coming Out of Chaos was that solo, right?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah.

Amber Funk Barton: Oh, yeah, yeah. I know about Coming Out of Chaos. There was a project [Body to Body] last year and it was Darcy McMurray, Josh Martin, and I and we re-learned the solo and she [Karen Jamieson] taught it to us and we went through it, Emma, we went through it all.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah [laughs]. Okay, cool. So you do know it!

Amber Funk Barton: [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It's amazing that that solo came out of the chaos, given the tumultuous nature of that whole creation process!

Amber Funk Barton: Yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I was wondering, kind of before you got involved with the Solo From Chaos in the Body to Body project, how did you get involved with Karen Jamieson Dance?

Amber Funk Barton: Oh my goodness. It was so long ago, maybe 2006, somewhere in there. I want to say she [Karen Jamieson] approached me. Of course I can't remember if it was in person or by email, but it was for the big remount of Sisyphus. It was some huge anniversary, and Jay Hirabayashi was redoing the same role he did when he was like thirty – I think he was about sixty at that point in time. So, that was my first introduction to working with Karen [Jamieson] and I was part of that original re-mount of Sisyphus, the anniversary of Sisyphus. I can't remember the specific number but that was a pretty crazy experience.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Sisyphus is a really endurance-based performance.

Amber Funk Barton: Yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: So then the next piece that you worked on with Karen was for the Body to Body project, the Solo From Chaos?

Amber Funk Barton: Yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Do you have any memories or experiences that you could share from that?

Amber Funk Barton: Oh my god, that ladder! Oh like, terrified! I just got to that point in some rehearsals where I was just like, I might stand on the top, I might not [laughs]. I might just see how comfortable I am [laughs]. That ladder was truly something. We did a showing in [The Dance Centre] theatre when we were at the end of the project, and being in that black space with this ladder, and then all of a sudden, Karen's like, Yeah, we're gonna have lights. I'm like, Oh, my God, please no [laughs]. That ladder is burned into my brain. This is all good memories because I love that process. I mean, Josh, Darcy, and I all move completely differently. Our personalities are obviously very different, but the way we all move and interpret movement is also very different. So, it's really interesting to constantly watch each of us, one at a time, how we're doing this solo that Karen did. My other favourite thing was just watching Karen on video.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Oh yeah? Cool!

Amber Funk Barton: Crazy! I was just like, look at this crazy wild woman! I mean that all in the best way, and then watching that work, realizing how, to me, like that is contemporary work – like when it was coming out. You can't categorize it. I love how she was just doing her thing. She was doing what she believed in. She was just believing in what she wanted to make. It wasn't like anyone else – the subject matter, or the themes. That takes guts.

One of my other favourite things – we did the process in two chunks and after the first chunk, we had a little showing in one of the tiny studios of The Dance Centre. I think it was Darcy's little boy, he was just looking up at the dancers on the ladder – it's too bad you can't record my facial expressions, but just had the biggest eyes looking at these dancers on top of the ladder and especially when his mom was up there. It was just the sweetest thing and it reminded me how dance can be so magical for children. I forget that all the time. Like it can be magical for human beings too, but for a little person who's still new on the planet and seeing bodies move like that, with loud music and everything, it's just such a privilege to be able to perform in front of those little people.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, I was actually there for that performance!

Amber Funk Barton: Oh, you were!

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, and I remember him! He also loved the breath work on the microphone. Wasn't he running around the studio like trying to mimic some of the sounds?

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It’s so great, that spirit of curiosity and playfulness.

Amber Funk Barton: Oh, yeah, the microphone, I forgot about that! [laughs] Oh my god, I just loved it. I feel like I'm not usually the resistant one, but many times...Karen was like, Oh, you guys could just sing it! And I'm like, not a singer, but then at some point, you just surrender. You just go with it. It was actually a lot of fun. I felt like that whole piece wasn't a solo, it actually turned into a duet. It was good. It wasn't like we were copying the throat musician [Ahmed Hassan], because we're not throat musicians, but there was a sense that we were supporting each other, and following each other, and watching each other, and it was actually really great once we made that connection. It felt so much more than just relearning a dance. It was much more present and it was much more this is happening now as opposed to I'm doing this thing that came from the past. You're just so connected to the other person on stage with you. But yeah, the microphone! [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: [laughs] To what you said before of how you, Josh, and Darcy all move so differently, even the way that you approached doing voice work was all very different as well!

Amber Funk Barton: Oh yeah, everything's different. Everything [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: So, when you were working with Karen, did you find that you had some commonalities between your practices that came forward?

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah, Karen works with a lot of image, and she works with felt sensation, and that's very much a place where I come from now when I'm creating work. So, she's just like, It's this image – like, for example, she's like [gestures with hands and arms to mimic fire flames moving upward]. “It's like fire and it's like,” and she demonstrates – coming up. And I'm like,

“Okay, I get it, fire,” right? So, it's like she's doing specific movements, but she's not saying like, “Okay, you take your hand and you go this way.” You have to watch her, because it's not like it's a technical step. Like, if you're familiar with that Solo [From Chaos], there's a diagonal that goes back and forth, and she's just like, “Kay, so this is this section, it's just rising and falling.” And you're like, Okay, free to interpretation, got it! [laughs]. But she gives you some images. I don't think I'm that open in terms of image, but I do work with image a lot, like using image, and then explaining with the dancer the technical aspect of the image. Again, very emotion-based, image-based, so I think that's a commonality that I share with Karen. And also the storytelling. I feel like her storytelling is a bit more specific and finite. There's a specific narrative arc: plot, climax, finish. Whereas mine are just kind of there, and then they just sit [laughs], and there's no resolution.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: [laughs]

Amber Funk Barton: Some people don't like that, but that's okay. I like it because I don't think things get resolved in life actually, all the time. The difference is she's [Karen’s] drawn from specific folklore and specific stories, whereas mine I would say are more observations. My stories are more observations of what I see in the world, or relationships, or people. I feel like hers are universal, but finite, and mine are a bit more on the universal spectrum.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Nice. That’s a good observation and distinction to make. I was also wondering – especially as someone who's born and raised in Vancouver, how dance archives fit into your practice? Obviously, for this specific piece, a lot of archival materials were used for context and to show you some background, but then you’ve also got Karen in the flesh, who is the living archive, in a way.

Amber Funk Barton: She is the archive.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I think that idea of taking the concept of the archive, and thinking about what the embodiment of an archive might be is so interesting. I'm sure as a dancer, you probably have some interesting thoughts about that.

Amber Funk Barton: I feel like this is more of a regular thing in repertoire companies. So, for example, Ballet BC, there's always an ongoing archive. They're always going back and bringing back pieces. With certain companies, or the certain way certain artists work, it's a normal thing to document everything. And then there are very special people that play a part in how a work is remounted. It may not be the choreographer, but maybe it's their assistant who has experienced or performed or taught their work in the past and they are always going back to pass along the work to other dancers or companies. So that archive, with certain companies or certain artists, is always prevalent. I think that's what's starting to disappear now is that in Vancouver, it's very much about new creation. New creation, new creation, onto the next thing, new creation, new, new, new, new, new, and there's not a lot of going back into the past and bringing work back. So I think the argument is there that the art of the repertoire dancer, a dancer with those skills, is starting to die out.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Right. That’s super interesting.

Amber Funk Barton: Then you'll get some dancers, you try to teach them something from the past, and they're like, But that's not how I do it. I'm like, Exactly, that's not how you do it. It's not anything personal, this is what I want. And of course, Karen was questioning what is it to take repertoire back? I mean, there's people where it's like, No, it's specifically like this. You have to do it exactly how it was in the past. And then there are other people that are interested in bringing it back and seeing what a new dancer can bring to it. But yeah, I feel like it's more those bigger traditional companies that will use resources and documentation, because they'll buy a work for however many years, and then they can use that work, or they know that work draws a big audience, or it's just a good work. It's a very specific thing you're asking of a dancer and a skill set. And it's not for everybody, and some people just aren't interested. A lot of archiving is just the accumulation of documented work.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah.

Amber Funk Barton: We're all working so hard a lot of the time, we're not thinking about going back into the past, we're just accumulating, and we're just documenting it, and, that's great, but I think now – especially with COVID-19, it's made me think that there needs to be a couple more documentaries, or some type of documentation where it's like, Okay, how are we dealing with this situation? This could be really important for us to look back on later, or for people to understand how limited and frustrating it was for artists during this time to continue to work.

I feel like an independent dancer, to participate in that, they have to be open-minded. They have to want to do it, they have to let go. If you're going to learn somebody else's work, repertoire – especially from the past, you have to let go of what you think it should be. You're taking on this role, and you've agreed to honour this person, to help them bring this work back, and you can put your own spin on it, and ask questions, and that's the beauty of why I love working on work from the past. Like, how can I embody what it was, but make it my own at the same time? How can I have the best of both worlds? How can I uphold that world that was created – all the technique and all the challenges within that expression, but how can I make sure that when I'm doing it, I'm also me, and people see me as an artist within that? I don't even know how to articulate it properly. It's a very, very delicate balance where you're not coming in, and telling the choreographer or the archivist how you would do it, there has to be this mutual respect, and exchange, and honour. I always feel like anytime you're asked to do repertoire, you're also part of a lineage and you need to respect that. It's not about you – it's about you because you've been asked to come, but you just have to trust that the person wants you to be there for a specific reason. Just trust in that and try and leave any idea, or ego of what you feel like it should be or have to be. There's always a way to have those conversations, but you have to honour the work. The work comes first is what I'm trying to say [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: You bring up these really important and challenging questions about how can you still bring forward "you" as a dancer into the restaging of a work, while also honouring, as you said, these lineages and the people who came before you who have also embodied and created this work. It’s really interesting. Would you ever have a use for dance archives, especially as someone who has their own company, either for referential purposes or to document and preserve your own work?

Amber Funk Barton: Maybe. I don't know. I will say, archives, or just documentation of work, has allowed me to be creative with teaching my students now. So, for example, I'm like, Oh, my God, I have three hours on Zoom with them, what am I going to do? And then my employer gave me a great idea, she's like, “Well, why don't you show some of the videos of the last two weeks of the live stream of your dancers you just did?” And I'm like, “That's great.” There were two 10-minute solos and we had this huge 45-minute discussion on each solo, and trying to get them to understand, Okay, why is this performance this way, versus our movement that we do in class, and younger students – especially now – they're not always going to theatre and they're not seeing what is possible for contemporary dance. But I think [archives] are a way for teaching. It's a way of sharing. I think it's really important now, because Vancouver, on the West Coast, compared to the East Coast, is still so new.

And the younger generation, I hope they know who certain people are! It breaks my heart when I talk about Lola MacLaughlin, and people don't know who that is. Like someone who had such a huge, huge influence on this community. I was always taught that you have to know your dance history of where you come from and understand it. You just don't get to come in and do whatever you want. You have to pay respect. Even with ballet, when I was a kid, I was always encouraged, Go back and study the ballets, watch those ballets, know where it comes from.

Watch how those older artists are interpreting the movement. I think we've gotten away from that because everything's so fast, with technology, going forward, but now there's no excuse to not document things. If more than anything, it's just being mindful and slowing down to think like, Okay, why am I taping this? When am I going to use it again? I think it's good if you don't know, just to compile a pool of things, and then you'll get the idea after. If it wasn't for Peter Dickinson's book [My Vancouver Dance History: Story Movement Community] recently, who's keeping tabs on how so and so gets to do this? It's because so and so back here did this. They did it for you. And how many people or the younger generation, myself included, how many people are reading Peter’s book?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: [laughs] Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. How can we rethink teaching practices or integrate histories into a pedagogical framework, especially given how accessible a lot of these materials are – and can be – in the digital sphere now!

Amber Funk Barton: The thing is, unless you have a teaching mindset, that might not come up which is not wrong. I just bring it up because I’m teaching so much more now than I ever have, so I'm in that mindset. As a choreographer, I would say I'm very much more of a teacher and an educator. Definitely an educator now. So, that's where my brain is at. I don't think it's wrong because when you're just trying to create work, you're just trying to get the funding, you're trying to do all the things. Archiving and your legacy is like [laughs], will I have a legacy? What's a legacy? I'm just trying to make a show! [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: And that's so common for creative people. You're not thinking about like, 20-30 years ahead. You're just trying to do what you do to survive. It’s challenging enough just to create [laughs].

Amber Funk Barton: Yeah [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: But then it's also amazing when you do get to see these lineages. And you do get to make all these connections and see where you came from.

Amber Funk Barton: Oh, and like Karen's stories about Coming Out of Chaos with people I know, and hearing that, I'm just like, Oh, those are the stories I want! Because then you hear something, you're like, That makes so much sense [laughs]. It's like, all of a sudden your brain just goes [makes whooshing noise] like, super clear as to why somebody does something, or why somebody does their work like that [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, it's true. It helps rationalize. I feel like the conditions for creating work have also changed a lot. It didn't seem like people were all that nice to each other back then [laughs].

Amber Funk Barton: I have these thoughts now where I'm just like, Do they still talk to each other? What happens when they pass each other in the street?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: So many years – decades of drama, but I think at the foundation, there's mutual respect for each other which is cool.

Amber Funk Barton: Oh yeah, there has to be.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, and given how small the community is too, it’s inevitable. Do you have anything you’d like to say about why preserving Vancouver's contemporary dance history is important to you and what you'd like to see done?

Amber Funk Barton: I don't have anything specific because I don't like saying we should or shouldn't be doing this. I think I always want to believe that things happen at the right time. Maybe there are certain works that need to be analyzed more than others. We're also getting a turnover in generation. For example, I am in mid-career. There's a huge pool of us. I feel like within the next couple of years, there could be a switch of like, You know what? This piece was really good, let's go back to this piece and, and bring it forward. I think it's a reflection of age and time. Speaking from my personal experience, you're so hard on yourself when you're young, and then you look back and you're like, Holy shit, that was a great piece! [laughs] Maybe you should just go back to that piece, and revisit it, and heal yourself, or learn something new, and go back. I think so much of it depends on the artist, and the choreographer, and where they're at. It's such a personal decision to go back and to archive, or to bring up work from the past. It has to be the right piece. Not everything has to come back. It sounds bittersweet, but saying goodbye to certain things, or closing things, is okay. But then there are other things, like, No, this is like, good. We should bring it back. Like, for example – this is my best example: Janet Jackson's Rhythm Nation music video choreography.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Oh my god! Copying her choreography from that video on TV is one of my earliest dancing memories!

Amber Funk Barton: Right? It's timeless! There are still workshops going on today of people teaching that choreography. People sign up and those workshops are packed. Everybody just loses their shit when they're doing it with the music. Something timeless was created, and I feel like, to a certain degree, there are certain things... Like Sisyphus is a moment in time where she [Karen] just hit the nail on the head. It doesn't matter how many times that piece comes back. It is so poignant and lovely. It doesn't matter what body does it, there's a new way of expressing that story. What I'm saying is very broad, but it's the right pieces at the right time.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah.

Amber Funk Barton: We all have our own little Rhythm Nation pieces [laughs] that we'll pull out.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I love that [laughs]. Well, I would say we can end it there.

Amber Funk Barton: Okay. I don't know if that exactly answers the question, because you can't tell anybody what they should or should be doing, but I think it's a felt/sense thing. I felt like Karen felt that too. And it's the timing. I could be wrong, but I feel like she's thinking of wrapping up certain things, and so that feels very appropriate that you would go back and celebrate your work. Especially when we were in [the studio for Solo From Chaos] last year, and I'm like, Yeah, you should celebrate yourself and all these pieces that you made! It's incredible. Especially that time in history when she was making those pieces. Super poignant. When we bring back pieces, we should celebrate how awesome we are [laughs] because we don't do it enough.

We're too hard on ourselves.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. That’s a great attitude. Well, thank you so much for doing this interview, Amber. I really enjoyed speaking with you.

Amber Funk Barton: Oh my goodness, thank you so much Emma.