Barbara Clausen & Emma Metcalfe Hurst
Interview for Coming Out of Chaos: A Vancouver Dance Story

September 17, 2020

Barbara Clausen, Founder of New Works Performance Society (1993), Executive Director of The Dance Centre (1987-1991), Managing Director of Terminal City Dance Research (1983-1985)

Emma Metcalfe Hurst, Karen Jamieson Dance Archivist/Creative Director of Coming Out of Chaos

This oral history interview has been edited for length, clarity, and accuracy

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: My first question is, what is your background entering into contemporary dance?

Barbara Clausen: It goes back a long way because when I went to high school in Berkeley, California [laughs] in the late '60s, you could choose team sports, individual sports, or modern dance as your PE requirement. So, being a klutz, I decided to do modern dance – never heard of it before, I thought, What the heck! So, every day for two years, I got a modern dance class. And it was [Martha] Graham technique, because the teachers came from Merritt College, where Graham technique was taught. At the end, there was a dance performance that we all got involved in – choreographed and danced in, so it actually totally demystified the form for me! It didn't make me want to be a dancer, but it actually really solidified my belief that experience in an art is actually fantastic for school kids, because that's what helps you understand the art form.

Anyway, moving along, I did a little bit of dance in college, but I majored in Visual Arts and we immigrated to Canada in 1968. I was looking around for a class and I saw this recreation class by Anna Wyman. I didn't know who she was of course, because I'd just moved to Canada. I went and took her class, and she basically said, Come on down to my studio, because she could see that I'd had some training. I was in her studio for several years, she even put me on her Junior troupe – whatever that would have meant, but it didn't amount to anything because then we moved to San Francisco for a year and so on. From her [Anna Wyman’s] studio at a certain point, the senior members of her classes were asked to come and take a class for Simon Fraser. Iris Garland came around saying, “Oh, come to a class! Come to a class!” And many of us came, and the teacher applying was Santa Aloi. In the dressing room after the class, we were so blown away by her class, several of us said, “Listen, if they hire her, let's go up to Simon Fraser!” Which we did [laughs] as mature students. So, I did class with her [Santa Aloi]. I think I did the only student choreography in a faculty performance – that's my claim to fame. But it was an actual score by a composer.

Anyway, we went along, and then I had another kid and then I guess, I got into administration because I was hired by Joyce Ozier to be her Assistant at Terminal City Dance in [1980].

Simon Fraser [University] at the time had a huge influence on a lot of us because they were bringing in international performers. There was an important performing series – aside from David Y.H. Lui's [Founder of Ballet BC and Dance Spectacular] Dance Spectacular downtown, which was all ballet or large-scale, modern, contemporary. The experimental stuff – the really interesting stuff, was being shown at Simon Fraser, so that was a huge influence on me and on many people at that time.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: That's great. So, you went to the early dance workshops then at Simon Fraser?

Barbara Clausen: Yeah, they were US dancers: Phyllis Lamhut, Gladys Bailin. Really interesting New York-based dancers who came for the summer. Our experience was really enriched by that. But again, I wasn't a dancer, I was just somebody who loved dance [laughs], and then I got into administration. That's that story! [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Although those two stories are obviously very tied together.

Barbara Clausen: Yes, yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: You've had an extensive career as an administrator working with so many different organizations and dancers. Could you talk about how you came to work with Karen Jamieson?

Barbara Clausen: Yes. I had seen her perform at Simon Fraser with Savannah Walling in a duet, and I was intrigued so I knew who she was. At a certain point, I was approached by Joyce Ozier who had a grant to get an assistant. She was the manager of what was then Terminal City Dance: Terry Hunter, Savannah Walling, and Karen Jamieson, and she said, Come on down! So, I did, I think it was a half-time job or something. I had never done any administration at all. We worked out of Terry and Savannah's studio in Chinatown [laughs]. It was a zoo, a beautiful studio in the front, but it was their living quarters as well. I remember coming to work–and of course, in those days we had typewriters, not computers, and I'm coming to work and seeing Terry's socks on the typewriter [laughs], and, you know, going into the bathroom, and having to move their toothbrushes. I learned Arts admin the hard way. I did books. Joyce [Ozier] taught me how to do bookkeeping, manually. I think I wrote a couple of grants. Towards the end of the first year, she said, Oh, by the way, I'm going on sabbatical with my husband next year so tag, you're it! [laughs] So I went, Ah... sure...! Those were the days where you could go and get training at Banff [Centre for the Arts], or go to workshops that were really well supported, and well-presented, so I did a couple of those, but it really was like reinventing the wheel.

That year was the year that Karen [Jamieson] formed her own company within Terminal City [Dance], and Terry Hunter and Savannah Walling formed Special Delivery. It was hard because there were two companies then at that point, and I was booking a tour for Special Delivery, a BC tour, and one of my most difficult memories was after that tour was over, I hadn't seen the work. Ever. Because it hadn't been created yet, and just got sent out on tour. I had a presenter call me afterwards and say, I will never book dance again. It just killed me. They did not like the work. Because it was experimental, or who knows why. It just made me feel so bad and it taught me a really good lesson, which is you cannot book work that you haven't seen–either for your own presentation series-which is what I began to do after a while-or on tour.

At that time Karen [Jamieson] was creating a work with all these rabble rousers [laughs] which became Coming Out of Chaos. After Coming Out of Chaos we all sat down together [Barbara Clausen, Savannah Walling, Terry Hunter, and Karen Jamieson]. I was presenting work out of the [Terminal City Dance] studio at the time, but also out of the Western Front, but under the name Terminal Dity Dance Research. They were extremely supportive of that, they said, Yeah, that's great, you do that [laughs]. I can't remember how I was doing that and managing at the same time, but maybe it was after Joyce [Ozier] came back. I'm not sure, but it was a really, really interesting thing. The four of us sat down and I remember we were in somebody's yard in the grass and it was a beautiful day. Terry Hunter, Savannah Walling, Karen Jamieson. It was Terminal City Dance Research by that time, they had renamed it. They basically had decided to separate, but it was just so amicable, it was so generous. And they said, Listen, we're going to actually go out and form our own non-profits and we're going to leave Terminal City Dance Research in your hands, Barb. Hello! I was handed a huge gift. They said, Keep presenting. I think they probably separated what little assets they had, but I was left holding this fabulous bag – which is only a fabulous bag if you're going to apply for grants, which is of course what I did! [laughs]

I presented out of the Firehall [Arts Center]. Actually, I was the first dance presenter in the Firehall. It hadn't even really been finished as a performing space, but Donna Spencer was there, and she was a theatre person. I literally came with a basket and a grant application, and I said, Listen, I've got some money to present some work. And she scooped off half of her desk, and she said, Here, sit here and let's do it together. So, the first dance to be presented at the Firehall was through a grant that she helped support. I had done one at Western Font with Jane Ellison before that, and Jane and I collaborated on the one at the Firehall as well because Marie Chouinard was on that [program], and Jane knew Marie. She had been presented at the Western Front before that so that was pretty exciting.

I was handling Terminal City Dance Research, with the board and with some grants, and then I got hired to go to the Canada Council in Ottawa. I wondered, Where can I hand this off? And exactly at the same time, there was a really important collective action on the part of the larger dance community to have a dance center. I can't remember whose initiative it was, I mean I know who was initiating The Dance Centre–we can talk about that in a minute, but basically, it made sense for this non-profit called Terminal City Dance Research to be converted, basically, into The Dance Centre. So, what I find lovely is that Terminal City survives to this day. I mean, they changed the constitution, they changed the name, but in fact, that's the original non-profit. That's the one. So, I think that's exciting [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: That is exciting! That's what I was hoping to hear from you actually [laughs].

Barbara Clausen: Oh, you know about it?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, I do!

Barbara Clausen: [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: When I interviewed Savannah Walling, she really highlighted to me the significance of Terminal City Dance Research.

Barbara Clausen: Yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It's such an under-represented history in the way that you just expressed – this kind of through-line.

Barbara Clausen: Through-line, yep.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: That is woven through time and the end result being The Dance Centre. That was exactly what I was looking for!

Barbara Clausen: Woohoo! [laughs] The other thing to remember, which I'm sure you know, is that Terminal City, from its very beginnings as an experimental collective, was really an important seminal group. I mean, it was odd and experimental, and theatre-dance, but it served a really important place in the ecology of dance in the '70s. I think it's so cool that it's embedded in The Dance Centre [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Truly. So, when you were handed Terminal City Dance Research, you said you were programming?

Barbara Clausen: Yes. A presenter.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Was there a mandate that had to shift when you took over, or how did you go about programming?

Barbara Clausen: Well, having run a lot of nonprofits [laughs], it's pretty easy. I mean, usually you write a mandate that can encompass just about everything, and I cannot recall at that time, but it didn't seem to be going against the general intention of the company, and certainly the founders were fine with it. I probably had a board member or two saying, Are we supposed to be doing this? But it was fine [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: So, then I guess Terminal City Dance Research never had a company after Karen, Terry, and Savannah.

Barbara Clausen: No. It eventually became The Dance Centre.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I see. So, do you have any memories of the Coming Out of Chaos piece that Karen was working on when you took over Terminal City Dance Research?

Barbara Clausen: Oh yes [laughs]. I wasn't in the studio a lot, but it was like herding cats. This was a very diverse group. My recollection of the performances – and I did see at least one on Granville Island–was that it was just barely hanging together. I think some performances were off the rails, and some of them were not controlled, but were more integrated. I found it a really powerful, chaotic, unpredictable energy–just barely contained and I think it had to do with the personalities. I think that was the intention. Karen [Jamieson]'s brilliant, as you probably have figured out by now [laughs]. I think those dancers didn’t really like working with her, and then they went off and formed EDAM [laughs]. So, it's like, We're gonna do something else! But she really used them for who they were.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, that sounds about right. It sounds like Karen was also at the point where she was ready and able to go off and be by herself.

Barbara Clausen: I think so. Yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It was really interesting speaking to her about that piece specifically because Grant Strate supported her to just take this opportunity to do this work and separate herself–or begin that separation from Terminal City, but her process for choosing everyone was pretty much just like they were around! It was a small community then. There was no greater intention or purpose for bringing these people together.

Barbara Clausen: No, come on down! I remember she tried to hire Ted Robinson, who at the time was in Winnipeg, and who eventually was to head the Winnipeg contemporary dancers–a really powerful, interesting dancer who continues to perform to this day. He became a monk for a while. He's wonderful. I think he would have made a fabulous contribution, and I don't know why it didn't work out. I remember him coming to the studio, and working a little bit with her, and her being disappointed that he couldn't join the company. But there you go.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. So it goes. So then afterwards, obviously the Solo From Chaos followed Coming Out of Chaos, what significance did that piece have for you? How did you perceive that piece in Karen's development as an artist?

Barbara Clausen: Well, it's just a brilliant, brilliant solo. It was already when it was part of the overall work, but it's a really powerful solo for her. I've seen it several times. I don't know what I would say about it, except that it stands on its own for sure.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Could you talk about the process of developing The Dance Centre?

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. So, here's the funny thing: when I handed over the file and the nonprofit [Terminal City Dance Research], and it became The Dance Centre. The coordinator that was hired by Grant Strate, who was Chairman of the Board, was Joyce Ozier. So, there's another thread [laughs]. I was in Ottawa for two years at the Canada Council as a Dance Officer, and towards the end of the second year, it became clear that The Dance Centre was about to hire an Executive Director. Because my family was a West Coast family, and we really missed the Coast, and Ottawa has some things to offer, but not everything for us, and I was asked to apply. Now I had to do it secretly so it was kind of exciting. It was a bit of cloak-and-dagger stuff. But they flew me out, I swore the selection committee to absolute secrecy because everybody knows everything in the dance world. I went back to work [at the Canada Council], the job was offered to me. I didn't do anything until I actually got a contract in my hand, and then I gave my notice. So, I was the founding Executive Director of The Dance Centre. When I arrived, my very first meeting was with someone who is very dear to my heart at this point, but my first meeting with him was just a shocker – Herb Auerbach, a fabulous, fabulous man, developer and lover of dance, and real terrific supporter of all things dance. He called me in for a meeting on the first day on the job. He sat me down, he said, Okay, we're going to have a building. And I had to say to him, Herb, I don't think there's enough money in the budget for my salary so calm down. I was nicer than that [laughs], but it was just like, Are you kidding me? A building? We were in this really scummy office space on Main Street. The building has since burned down [laughs]. I had studied the budget, and I thought, This is crazy. I was gonna have to apply for a lot of grants. For better or for worse, I actually got a grant to hire seven people on a work study grant. I sat down and I said, Listen, we don't know what we're doing here but we're a service organization for dance and so if somebody calls and says, do you do x? The answer is yes. And then you come back and talk to me. [laughs] So, it was like, all things for all people at first.

I have the original grant application [for The Dance Centre] that Cathy Levy from Ottawa and I wrote for some funding to look at the idea of a dance centre. It was going to be joint marketing, joint administration–what The Dance Centre has sort of become, but not really. Anyway, I was very disappointed that the dance community, the companies that were existing at the time were not the least bit interested in sharing. Oh no no no. I've broken it down at the time now to the politics of poverty. All of those companies were working with very little funding. They were working out of crummy spaces, just scratching out, which is partly what made them so creative but on the other hand, it also made them very possessive of what they did have: No, I'm not gonna share, no.

Anyway, that was a disappointment but we managed to cook up some pretty interesting things. There was a dance video project. I was able to hire four videographers right out of Emily Carr, and send them around the country to take videos of dance companies. This was back when there was money to do stuff on funky grants. We did a really interesting project: Jay Hirabayashi came up with an idea called City on the Edge, which was a really interesting, funky festival on scaffolding outside of the [Vancouver] Art Gallery that we basically funded through a grant. It was his idea, but it was something that we [The Dance Centre] did. So, things would sort of come and go and fall into place. I think the idea of saying to people, Just ask us, and we'll say yes. I mean, recipe for burnout? You bet! [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. Definitely.

Barbara Clausen: But it was fun while it lasted.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. But at that point, to get yourselves off of the ground and to build those relationships with people in the community, that's why you had to take on that “yes” attitude.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. I mean, What are we here for? We're here to provide services. What do you want? What do you need? Okay, let's figure out if we can do it. And we did. We did some photography. We did some joint marketing. We did some presentations. That became very contentious. We began presenting out of the Playhouse as a matter of fact, The Dance Centre. But it was a really interesting series. It was a self-present series. We marketed it, but each company self-presented. There were some touring companies, as well as some local companies. The notion was, If you can afford to self-present in the Playhouse, we'll get the money to market the series and help you sell, which I think is a brilliant idea! Well [laughs], if you couldn't prove that you had the audience to fill The Playhouse, we wouldn't book you. It's like, that's suicide. Did we get some pushback from that? Yes, we did. And did a company or two that could have filled The Playhouse but didn't because the work wasn't so great blame us? Oh yes, they did [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: So then in that sense, it sounds like the purpose of The Dance Centre has evolved quite a bit to where it is now.

Barbara Clausen: Well, there had always been an intention to have a building. At a certain point, there was a separation. Then they formed a second society: one society to run The Dance Centre, and one society to build and run a building. At that point, I just said, that’s not for me. I had burned out actually, at a certain point. I think the fact that there is a fabulous building with lovely studios and office space is fantastic. It's not without its problems, but it became much more of a space than services – although I know services are provided.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: The centralization of dance activities seems like something the dance community really appreciates. A space where they know they're going to be able to go and see people that they're familiar with, and build community.

Barbara Clausen: Yes, for sure. It really raised the status of dance in Vancouver, I would say. The status of a dancer.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: And visibility too. So, how long were you at The Dance Centre for as Executive Director?

Barbara Clausen: I started in 1987 and left in 1991.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: What were some of the original goals of The Dance Centre?

Barbara Clausen: Mostly collective action, marketing, data collection, and other services. We were committed to responding to the needs of the dance community at the time.. It was actually pretty broad.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. And letting the dance community tell you what they needed at that time.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Could you talk about some of the major challenges that you faced?

Barbara Clausen: [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Burnout included?

Barbara Clausen: There was no real budget to operate. There was the impulse to create a building without services in place. A desire that was a challenge: a desire to be all things, to all people leading to burnout. There was a lot of tension around, what have you done for me lately? You know, you're an organization, you've been funded. A lot of the members of the community resented the fact that this organization had been funded, but individual dancers or dance companies had not. So, there was a sense of, Okay, so what are you going to do for me? Or, what have you done for me lately? So that just didn't feel great [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It kind of starts to create a competitive environment as well.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. We had managed to get quite a bit of extra funding from the Department of Communication–maybe the province, maybe the Canada Council, I can't recall. Which in the bureaucratic sense would never have been available to individual dancers. But when you see that amount of money going to a dance organization, and you are a poor, starving dancer with no place to perform, or no place to rehearse, it's galling, but having been a bureaucrat myself, and having understood the administration of these things, there's no way I could convince them: Listen, this money is for everybody and let's make sure that it supports some of your needs, but it can't be distributed.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. What do you think are some of the greatest accomplishments of The Dance Centre, and that can include things that they're doing today, or things that have happened more recently.

Barbara Clausen: Well, I think it has been a success, probably in spite of me because I'm the one that said building shmilding [laughs]. I mean the fact that that building exists right in Downtown Vancouver is pretty amazing. It's got beautiful studios. Anyway, one of the great accomplishments of The Dance Centre was putting the entire dance community together: the independent dancer, the culturally-specific dancer, the professional ballet company, all in the same place had a really wonderful effect on the community. It wasn't as separated and competitive as it was, because we're all in this thing together. I think that, for me, is the greatest accomplishment. When New Works was able to move into The Dance Centre, into an office–which is, again, one of those nice circular things that happened, I remember the first few weeks being in there and realizing this is not everybody, because not everybody can fit, but this is every kind of dancer, every level of professionalism and amateurism, which is very cool.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Could you talk about New Works? Did New Works come after The Dance Centre for you? What is the timeline?

Barbara Clausen: Oh, yeah. Let me see.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I think I have in my notes that New Performance Works Society was founded in '93?

Barbara Clausen: That sounds good. I can't quite recall... Oh, yes, I do recall! I had left The Dance Centre, and I had several female friends who had left large arts organizations in [Vancouver]: Vancouver New Music, Wendy Newman from the Vancouver East Cultural Centre – she had resigned from that. We kind of got together and had coffee, and we're jabbering, and I said, Listen, you know, there's an old boys club. Why don't we have an old girls club? And so we started meeting! There were probably six or seven of us, and the notion was, because we're all from different fields – music, dance, theatre.

It wasn't my initial idea, but we said each time we meet, somebody should bring an artist or something that they want to share. So, one time we listened to a really interesting piece of music. One time we saw a video of a really interesting dancer. And then somebody brought in a video of Suzanne Lacy, who's a performance artist based in LA, doing really interesting feminist work, working with young women. And we decided, Let's bring her to Vancouver and talk to her! And so then, somewhere in the back of my mind was let's form a nonprofit because that's the only way we're going to get money. So, we put together the paperwork for a nonprofit. I took it to get witnessed by my husband who said, It's all women. Is that legal? [laughs]. Literally! Anyway, so we formed a nonprofit, called it New Performance Works Society. Its mandate was really broad: dance, music, theatre.

Our first work was this very large-scale work with Suzanne Lacy, and a whole lot of teenage girls on a construction site. It took two years and many, many thousands of dollars to fund. I think it was a successful event, but it drove me crazy [laughs]. She's a very interesting artist. The name of our piece was [The] Turning Point. There’s a film of it. Anyway, that was one of our first things, and then I devolved into doing what I love best, which is presenting work. So, I started presenting Dance Allsorts and All Over the Map. I was one of the original board members of the Roundhouse Community Centre and I got off the board so that I could actually pitch them a proposal to present out of their performance space, because nobody was doing that. I pitched Dance Allsorts, the series was to be an enormous diversity of dance types because nobody was presenting work from places like China or Africa, locally. Amateur and semi-professional groups from different cultural traditions, that hadn't been shown at all in Vancouver, except within those cultural community settings. Interestingly enough, it's being presented now, which is great. Anyway, that was fun. They invited New Works to present at The Roundhouse, and then we went to Granville Island and did All Over the Map, which is another version of [Dance Allsorts] but an outdoor version.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Was this happening in the '90s?

Barbara Clausen: I founded New Works in 1993 and led it ‘till I resigned in 2010. The New Works program Dance Allsorts was started in 1997, and All Over the Map in 1998.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: What was your vision for starting New Performance Works Society?

Barbara Clausen: I had two! [laughs] To present work, in a variety of venues, and to provide management. That was just what I wanted to do. I was already managing a couple of companies when I formed New Works and I thought, Well, we can fit this in. As time went on, there were actually always two sides of the budget: the presentation side was being funded in a certain way, and the management side was being funded in another way. It got a little funny sometimes [laughs] I would say that that's not a very clear mandate. When I decided to retire from New Works, basically one member of the board said, What do you mean? It's Barb inc. We're gonna have to shut down! [laughs] We would have AGM's and they would say, So, what are we going to do next year Barb? [laughs] So, not a real clear mandate. Anyway, and it was very interesting. I did give them two years’ notice, I said, I'm going to be stopping in two years. I gave the board a two-year window, and they were an active board. Their initial response was, Oh, well, then we're just going to shut down because it's all about you, Barb, and I went, Well, okay. I didn't interfere. I said, It's an organization, you're the board, you're in charge. I am leaving. By the second year, they were saying, Wait a minute, this is a very cool organization. Hold on. We're not going to shut it down. We're going to find a replacement! [laughs] And the replacement was Joyce Rosario, who had been one of the teenagers in The Turning Point project [with Suzanne Lacy]. So, I mentored Joyce in that project when she was like 16. She stayed close. She actually got on the board of New Works. Then she became the Executive Director after me. So, there are all these little circular things, right?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, totally.

Barbara Clausen: [laughs] Joyce Rosario, after New Works, went to Made in BC Dance on Tour. She was Executive Director there. Then she went to the PuSh Festival. She was there for like seven years. And there was a fuss around that. So, yeah. Now she's gone to the Canada Dance Festival. She's great. She's fantastic.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: So, that's New Performance Works Society! I was reading the website and it said that mentorship is also part of their mandate now?

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. I was mentoring people all the time [laughs]. Eventually I even charged for it. You know, just dancers coming in saying, I don't know what to do about this. And what do you think and should I? And I would make one-hour appointments. I like doing that. I think in my next life, I might be a counsellor. I don't know [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, it all comes back to working with people for you!

Barbara Clausen: [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Could you speak about how you got into programming and what were your favourite things about that?

Barbara Clausen: I think it's about sharing. I love dance and you can't really describe it, you have to show it. I have learned that people who don't know anything about dance, and don't think they like it, and wonder what it is, almost invariably are hooked once they see good dance. So, I love that feeling of encouraging people to come and do and see something they've never seen before, and walk away saying, Whoa! You know, where can I see more of this? So, it's about that, I guess: The introduction of a form that I love. I can't think of any way to describe it except, Come on down, come on have a look! [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It's a very welcoming gesture to invite people to come to a place and to see and share something.

Barbara Clausen: It comes back around full circle.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It kind of follows that SFU ethos as well. When they were first starting out on the mountain, they held so many workshops. That came up a lot in the interviews I've done: how many of these dancers who built the foundation for contemporary dance here had exposure to dance through SFU hosting these workshops.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah, I like parties too so maybe that's part of it. I like people. Oh! That's the other thing I did with New Works. My god, at one time I was managing five dance companies through New Works! [laughs] Yeah, five little tiny dance companies: [Lee] Su-Feh, her first dance company; Joe Laughlin [Joe Ink]. I can't even remember who the others were at the time but I have a really interesting story. It's kind of off-topic, but Joe [Laughlin] had been to Africa and had worked with a beautiful choreographer named Vincent Mantsoe, and Vincent came to Vancouver to perform. He was performing at the Firehall and I asked him if he would do a Dance Allsorts, just a workshop, a low-key performance because Dance Allsorts was free. Pay what you can, but you could walk in and it was free. People always said, Oh, you shouldn't do that. In fact, I got pushback from funders about presenting for free. They said, You can't do that, people won't value it if they're not paying for it, which I think has been debunked. But that was the thinking at the time. Anyway, it was so gratifying because it was a fabulous performance. He [Vincent]'s just an extraordinary performer. About half the people came and spoke to me afterwards, they said, Oh, my goodness. Thank you for this. I couldn't afford to see it at the Firehall. It's the most amazing thing I've ever seen. Thank you. Thank you. And the other half said, Where can I get a ticket to see him at the Firehall? So, it really warmed my heart because it was providing an opportunity for people who wouldn't have had an opportunity, which is part of my deal, and also marketing [laughs] for his next show.

I don’t remember free workshops at Simon Fraser.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Oh yeah? Savannah Walling and Barbara Bourget mentioned them...

Barbara Clausen: I only remember Summer workshops that students paid for. But Simon Fraser had a huge impact on dance in Vancouver. Huge. Not only the performances that were being brought in, until they could no longer do that financially, but the teachers that were working there.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, and the interdisciplinary nature of the training. So, going back then to that time, can you recall what the contemporary dance scene was like in Vancouver in the '70s and '80s?

Barbara Clausen: Yeah, my recollection is that there were a lot of groups, companies – six or seven, maybe – all of them sort of scrabbling, with very little funding, very bad places to perform, or to rehearse. Not very many performing spaces. I guess there was the Western Front, little ones, and maybe the Firehall. [The] Cultch wasn't presenting much dance at that time. Main Dance I guess had a place. But the feeling was that work was being made against all odds, in a way, it was like, here we are on the edge of the world, back against the wall, and they were making really interesting stuff. Not a lot of people were seeing it, but it was interesting. Very original. In fact, it became known not too long after that, that Vancouver was where it was happening. We all thought, Oh Toronto, oh Montréal, but in fact, at a certain point, it was like, No, it's happening in Vancouver. Probably not in the ‘70s, but certainly by the ‘80s it became clear.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. Would you say that there were some common themes or interests that started to arise, or common influences that were coming forward?

Barbara Clausen: Primarily experimental, I would say. Non-conventional, pushing boundaries, interdisciplinary – lots of interdisciplinarity. A lot of this came from SFU I would say. Theatre-involved, voice, that kind of stuff. Not exclusively. I mean, Judith Marcuse was doing a repertory dance company, which was very conventional and very kind of "right," but everybody else was doing really interesting, odd stuff.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. Thinking about the interdisciplinary aspect of that time, could you share any memories you have of Ahmed Hassan?

Barbara Clausen: Oh! An amazing, amazing guy. Just a beautiful spirit. But an incredible musician. Really sensitive, wonderful improviser. Very receptive and responsive. Very unusual sounds. He just was beautiful. A beautiful guy [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. And then Lola MacLaughlin as well?

Barbara Clausen: She was an extremely stylish and private person. She and Ahmed were a pair for some time. Certainly not later in life, and she married Tony [Giacinti]. But she always was very put together. Wore great clothes. On stage she was always very stylish. She did beautiful solo work. Very quirky. She was not a warm dancer. She was a cool dancer, but very beautiful, aesthetically-inclined herself. More of a visual artist maybe than a dancer, although she was a great dancer. An unusual dancer, I would say. Quirky. [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah, I've heard that she was very into German Expressionism and art history.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. She studied a lot. She was very, very intellectual in her approach.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about EDAM. So, after Coming Out of Chaos happened, then EDAM formed after that. Could you talk about what you think the impact of EDAM was on Vancouver contemporary dance?

Barbara Clausen: Oh, they were a huge hit. I really feel on some level – they’d probably object to my saying this – but that working with Karen, and working against Karen, and working with each other against Karen, they burst into the Western Front kind of fully-formed. Although, I guess Barbara Bourget and Jay Hirabayashi joined EDAM. They were not a part of Karen's group. That's funny because I had recalled that they were, but they weren't. They weren't part of Coming Out of Chaos.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Barbara Bourget was an understudy at the very beginning. She was a stand-in for Jennifer Mascall.

Barbara Clausen: Oh, okay. Jay [Hirabayashi]?

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Jay wasn't. Barbara [Bourget] recalls being invited to stay on, but she couldn't because she couldn't afford to do so at that time.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. Anyway, I have seen very few performances that were as exciting as EDAM's initial performance at the Western Front. Run Raw: Theme and Deviation (1983), it was called. It was amazing. It was really visceral. Karen's work, I find, is much more spiritual and sensual, and of course, it has many visceral qualities, but Run Raw was exactly what it says it was: [slaps hand] [laughs]. It had a huge impact on the community. It was very exciting that this company had come together and had produced a work of this power as a group.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Do you have any thoughts around how it evolved from being a core group of post-Coming Out of Chaos dancers?

Barbara Clausen: [laughs] Yeah, there was an inevitable – it almost always happens with collectives. It's like, you know, here they are. They're all working together. And then somebody wants to do something else, so there was a sort of a slow peeling away of EDAM. I remember I had a heart-to-heart with Lola [MacLaughlin] after Barb and Jay left to make Kokoro Dance, and Jennifer left to make her own company. And Lola and I had a heart-to-heart and she said, I don't know what to do. I don't remember what Lola Ryan [transitioned from Peter Ryan] was doing, but EDAM was obviously going to be left with Peter Bingham because the others had left. And she was still left as well. They were so aesthetically different. Really different. I mean, she is controlled, she is sharp, she's really interested in training. He's a contact improviser. He's a guy, he's a dude. Anyway, [laughs] She just said, I don't know what to do. I don’t know what I encouraged her to do, but she was worried, she was afraid to jump because she had that insecurity that this wasn't really going to be right for her. So yeah, it just evolved. It feels right for Peter Bingham to have it, he's a Western Front guy. It makes sense. I don't think he was always the heart of EDAM, but it makes sense for him to hold the bag because everybody else had other ideas and directions that they wanted to go in.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. Would you say that the early pieces that EDAM was making when everyone was together is quite different from the direction that Peter Bingham took it in?

Barbara Clausen: I can't say. I don't know. I think Peter is not a natural choreographer. He's a collaborator, and he has really interesting ideas, and he brings other people in and stuff. But I would say that the work, when it was the collective, was more finished. It was more complete, but I don't remember actually. So, there you go [laughs].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: It was a long time ago. And then there's also the influence of Ahmed Hassan as a musician on EDAM as well.

Barbara Clausen: Yeah. That was always at their core: Experimental Dance And Music. That's what EDAM means, and Ahmed was just an extremely strong member of that collective and really gave it the texture.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Moving on to the last two questions here... What do you think has changed the most for the Vancouver Contemporary dance community since Coming Out of Chaos was produced in the early '80s?

Barbara Clausen: Instead of a West Coast, groovy backwater, Vancouver has become a place with a national and even international reputation for the originality and vitality of its dance works. Now we've got Crystal Pite. We've got first-class, internationally touring artists which we didn't have in the '70s or '80s. We had a lot of local and national groovy stuff going on, but I think we have a professionalism now that we didn't then. From working against a lot of odds – funding and space – which caused the intensity and lack of cooperation, to now a more cooperative and interesting community that works together – I would say with the Dance Centre in charge. [laughs] There's a home for great dance studios, services, presentation series, at New Works, at the Firehall, at the Cultch, at The Dance Centre. God knows what's going to happen after COVID-19, but there's lots of presentation going on which is great. A great diversity of work and there's a real appetite for diversity of voices and cultural integrity, which there wasn't before. It was a lot of white people dancing before.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. You alluded to that earlier and how Dance Allsorts was trying to address cultural diversity by bringing in different voices, world views, and approaches to dance through their programming.

Barbara Clausen: Jay and Barbara have really taken on the notion of Butoh very strongly, and they weren't doing that before. There’s strong work from a South-Asian tradition, and artists like Lee Su-Feh and Ziyian Kwan are creating fascinating work with Asian influences. And younger artists are really mixing it up.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. Do you think there's the same kind of experimentation that was happening in the '70s and '80s today?

Barbara Clausen: Yes, absolutely with the younger crowd. I'm not as in touch with the community anymore. I live in Victoria. I don't see a lot of work, but what I hear and what I saw before I left was some very interesting experimentation. There's [Hong Kong Exile, for example].

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: I’ll have to look them up! So, I guess my last question here is: why is preserving Vancouver's Contemporary dance history and heritage important to you?

Barbara Clausen: All history is important. I believe in documenting and archiving and preserving history so people can see where they came from. See where they don't want to go. I don't really have a better answer for that.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: A more specific question that follows up that one is: what more do you think needs to be done in order to ensure that this history is preserved?

Barbara Clausen: I had a quick look at the Karen Jamieson website and I think it's fantastic. It's rich with archival materials and really good information. As many videos as possible, obviously. As much filming as can be saved and preserved. If everybody in town had a website that was as deep as the Karen Jamieson website – I know that she's been working on this for a while, and she’s nearing the end of her career, she's looking back, but to have put this resource behind archiving, I think is just brilliant. I think others are beginning to do that as well, which is great. But because it's video and film, you can't really appreciate dance when it's on a screen. I mean, if it's the only way that we can see it, then of course, but it's really important to have those visual statements – as many as possible to really understand what kind of work we're talking about. So, film, more film. More video! [laughs]

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Do you think The Dance Centre has a stake in archival initiatives for Vancouver?

Barbara Clausen: I have no idea what The Dance Centre wants to do [laughs]. I've been sort of curious about it since I was in the building, in the office. Of course they should, but I don't understand what the mandate really is of The Dance Centre – aside from providing space and performances. I don't know what their services are. But of course they should.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: There's definitely more to be done. The Dance Centre, in the way that you just expressed, is there to offer resources and support the community and I think archiving has a role to play in that. Especially as a space that also has studios and has dancers coming through regularly, it would be amazing to be able to make the [archives] available where dance production is happening on site.

Barbara Clausen: Oh, yeah. Especially now when everything has to be streamed live.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Yeah. Well, that’s all of my questions. Is there anything else you’d like to share?

Barbara Clausen: Well, I think it's worth mentioning the effect of Simon Fraser [University] as an institution, but also the individuals: Iris Garland, who held a very important place in making a dance department. She came out of Kinesiology and she formed a dance department. She was very supportive of Karen and Savannah and those dancers. And then Grant Strate, who held a really important part in the development of dance in Vancouver. He was the first Chairman of the Board of The Dance Centre, then he was Chairman of the Department at Simon Fraser. He commissioned the [Coming Out of Chaos] work. He was a real player on a national and international scale, as well as locally. I think that can't be minimized. Then Murray Farr, who was presenting up at Simon Fraser. He was a colleague of Chris Wootten who started the Vancouver East Cultural Center... Murray Farr was the presenter at Simon Fraser when all of the really exciting work was being presented. He had been working in New York, and had connections there. We had some special ingredients to contribute to the development of dance and in Vancouver. Murray Farr, Iris Garland, and Grant Strate were seminal in the creation of excitement.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Beautiful. Yeah, it's such a neat history there. Max Wyman was also talking about all these different departments at SFU that were coming into the dance department at that time and just how it was such a time of fermentation and cross-experimentation. Kind of this melting pot of disciplines coming together and this willingness to experiment with each other.

Barbara Clausen: Yes.

Emma Metcalfe Hurst: Well, thank you so much for doing this interview, it was really nice to speak with you.

Barbara Clausen: Thank you.